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	<title>Comments on: Chris O&#039;Leary&#039;s Worthless Argument against the Inverted W</title>
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		<title>By: Dan Blewett</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Blewett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-23</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, he is, but the difference is that the claims he makes are too strong.  He says, &quot;it&#039;s what great pitchers do,&quot; when in reality it&#039;s just what a few great pitchers do.  He oversteps his bounds.  But yes, you are right in your other points, I just have problems with methodology and language, as he presents things in a very strong way, which causes more concern in ballplayers who might be reading, who might not be in need of any actual changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, he is, but the difference is that the claims he makes are too strong.  He says, &#8220;it&#8217;s what great pitchers do,&#8221; when in reality it&#8217;s just what a few great pitchers do.  He oversteps his bounds.  But yes, you are right in your other points, I just have problems with methodology and language, as he presents things in a very strong way, which causes more concern in ballplayers who might be reading, who might not be in need of any actual changes.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-22</guid>
		<description>You are correct in stating that &quot;nearly everything in human performance is based on educated guesses and past success&quot;.  Isn&#039;t O&#039;leary doing just that when he is looking at pitchers with past success and similarities along with other information that he has gathered to make an educated guess?  He is not performing a research experiment and it is no different than you (a pitching coach) giving advice to ball players.  What advice do you give players and do you have research articles to back up everything you teach them?  I doubt it.  The readers can take what they want from it to see if it works for them, or not.  Nothing works for everybody, but at least he is looking at ways to try and prevent injuries in young pitchers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct in stating that &#8220;nearly everything in human performance is based on educated guesses and past success&#8221;.  Isn&#8217;t O&#8217;leary doing just that when he is looking at pitchers with past success and similarities along with other information that he has gathered to make an educated guess?  He is not performing a research experiment and it is no different than you (a pitching coach) giving advice to ball players.  What advice do you give players and do you have research articles to back up everything you teach them?  I doubt it.  The readers can take what they want from it to see if it works for them, or not.  Nothing works for everybody, but at least he is looking at ways to try and prevent injuries in young pitchers.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Blewett</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Blewett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-21</guid>
		<description>This is still neither here nor there, and I am really uninterested in arguing opinions and credentials.  If you think you&#039;re more qualified than me, congratulations, you&#039;re one of many out there I am sure.  Yet, there are tons of pitching coaches out there, myself included, who don&#039;t need a degree in physical therapy to make pitchers better, and some of the best I know have no medical credentials.  &quot;Expert&quot; is subjective, and going to med school and having a great understanding of the body still doesn&#039;t make one an expert on using it.  Millions play baseball and very few actually have a clue how to play it at even a moderate level.  Theory from the training room is great, but it&#039;s all too often not translated onto the field.  And again, even if raising your shoulder causes impingement, this isn&#039;t necessarily causing pitching injuries.  And again, if you really have research on this, send it my way, because I don&#039;t care to argue over thin air.

My article was extremely straightforward, and you&#039;re arguing to me way beyond the scope of it.  Honestly, if you read my post, there is nothing to argue - his language is absolutely too strong for his claims, his claims are based on improper research methodology, and he cites no research.  Logically, it&#039;s garbage, no doubt about it.  Like I said in my article, I don&#039;t claim to be an expert on the role of pitching mechanics on injuries, nor do I advocate for kids out there to change their mechanics based on my opinions.  Nearly everything in human performance is based on educated guesses and past success.  Nothing works for everybody, and I&#039;m not nearly arrogant enough to tell you what you should teach your kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is still neither here nor there, and I am really uninterested in arguing opinions and credentials.  If you think you&#8217;re more qualified than me, congratulations, you&#8217;re one of many out there I am sure.  Yet, there are tons of pitching coaches out there, myself included, who don&#8217;t need a degree in physical therapy to make pitchers better, and some of the best I know have no medical credentials.  &#8220;Expert&#8221; is subjective, and going to med school and having a great understanding of the body still doesn&#8217;t make one an expert on using it.  Millions play baseball and very few actually have a clue how to play it at even a moderate level.  Theory from the training room is great, but it&#8217;s all too often not translated onto the field.  And again, even if raising your shoulder causes impingement, this isn&#8217;t necessarily causing pitching injuries.  And again, if you really have research on this, send it my way, because I don&#8217;t care to argue over thin air.</p>
<p>My article was extremely straightforward, and you&#8217;re arguing to me way beyond the scope of it.  Honestly, if you read my post, there is nothing to argue &#8211; his language is absolutely too strong for his claims, his claims are based on improper research methodology, and he cites no research.  Logically, it&#8217;s garbage, no doubt about it.  Like I said in my article, I don&#8217;t claim to be an expert on the role of pitching mechanics on injuries, nor do I advocate for kids out there to change their mechanics based on my opinions.  Nearly everything in human performance is based on educated guesses and past success.  Nothing works for everybody, and I&#8217;m not nearly arrogant enough to tell you what you should teach your kids.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-20</guid>
		<description>Of course more research needs to be done in showing a causal link between pitching mechanics and injury.  I am just pointing out that from a medical and physical therapy stand point that what Chris O&#039;leary states about the inverted &quot;W&quot; is NOT worthless.  It has already been proven through lots of research that shoulder impingement occurs when the elbow is elevated above the shoulder and more stress is placed on the rotator cuff if it is externally rotated in that position. Yes, stress is placed on the rotator cuff every time a ball is thrown, but wouldn&#039;t you want to minimize it by using better mechanics?

Ask any orthopedist or physical therapist if the inverted &quot;W&quot; position is impinging the rotator cuff and creating more of chance for an injury.  I have some background in biomechanics, I have looked at hundreds of slow motion pitching clips,  I played baseball, and I am a physical therapist so I probably am more qualified to discuss body mechanics or pitching mechanics than you.  You state that Greg Maddux has nice pitching mechanics and I agree with you, but how do YOU know that?  My point was that All those great pitchers that I mentioned use very similar pitching mechanics and that does translate into how much and when specific muscles are &quot;fired&quot; and timing.

Yes, major league pitchers all use their core muscles, but some make better use of these muscles.   Some also create a larger hip/shoulder separation so that they are relatively using more of these muscles than their arms.  Why do think Tim Lincecum can throw so hard for such a little guy?  It&#039;s not because he has stronger arms than anyone else, it is because he makes better use of his mechanics, flexibility, and larger muscle groups.

So when you say Chris O&#039;leary&#039;s argument is worthless, I will have to disagree with you.  We should at least make use of the research that we have, even if some of it is correlational right now.   Some of his information suggests to me that he has done his homework and checked out several professionals and biomechanical studies before have provided his advice.  He has been correct in many of his predictions on pitchers and I don&#039;t believe he has been proven wrong either.  I am using some of his information, along with what I already know to teach my own kids so that their chances of getting injured may be reduced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course more research needs to be done in showing a causal link between pitching mechanics and injury.  I am just pointing out that from a medical and physical therapy stand point that what Chris O&#8217;leary states about the inverted &#8220;W&#8221; is NOT worthless.  It has already been proven through lots of research that shoulder impingement occurs when the elbow is elevated above the shoulder and more stress is placed on the rotator cuff if it is externally rotated in that position. Yes, stress is placed on the rotator cuff every time a ball is thrown, but wouldn&#8217;t you want to minimize it by using better mechanics?</p>
<p>Ask any orthopedist or physical therapist if the inverted &#8220;W&#8221; position is impinging the rotator cuff and creating more of chance for an injury.  I have some background in biomechanics, I have looked at hundreds of slow motion pitching clips,  I played baseball, and I am a physical therapist so I probably am more qualified to discuss body mechanics or pitching mechanics than you.  You state that Greg Maddux has nice pitching mechanics and I agree with you, but how do YOU know that?  My point was that All those great pitchers that I mentioned use very similar pitching mechanics and that does translate into how much and when specific muscles are &#8220;fired&#8221; and timing.</p>
<p>Yes, major league pitchers all use their core muscles, but some make better use of these muscles.   Some also create a larger hip/shoulder separation so that they are relatively using more of these muscles than their arms.  Why do think Tim Lincecum can throw so hard for such a little guy?  It&#8217;s not because he has stronger arms than anyone else, it is because he makes better use of his mechanics, flexibility, and larger muscle groups.</p>
<p>So when you say Chris O&#8217;leary&#8217;s argument is worthless, I will have to disagree with you.  We should at least make use of the research that we have, even if some of it is correlational right now.   Some of his information suggests to me that he has done his homework and checked out several professionals and biomechanical studies before have provided his advice.  He has been correct in many of his predictions on pitchers and I don&#8217;t believe he has been proven wrong either.  I am using some of his information, along with what I already know to teach my own kids so that their chances of getting injured may be reduced.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Blewett</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Blewett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-19</guid>
		<description>First, understand that neither O&#039;leary or yourself have any actual research showing a causal link between ANY type of pitching mechanics and injury.  NO ONE in the baseball biomechanics field has a causal link between pitching mechanics and injury.  Correlational research is the best anyone has done, and they have been weak at best.

Second, you&#039;ve completely missed the point.  O&#039;Leary&#039;s comparative argument is fatally flawed.  Sure, Greg Maddux has nice pitching mechanics, but just because Greg had a great, injury-free career does NOT indicate that his mechanics play any causal role in his or anyone else&#039;s injury status. The fact of the matter is, if you want to say anything about the role pitching mechanics play in injury, then you need to take a very large sample of pitchers and compare them to themselves as well as the major league average for injuries, etc. etc. (I explained this all in my article, which it appears you largely skimmed).

Third, how do you know Nolan Ryan, Roger, Greg and Randy use their &quot;Core&quot; muscles more than other pitchers? Let me answer: you don&#039;t.  That&#039;s just anecdotal.  There is not a pitcher out there who throws 90+ who doesn&#039;t use his large muscles, rotate his hips before his shoulders, etc. etc.

Fourth, &quot;stress&quot; on the rotator cuff? Stress is pretty common on the rotator cuff, as every pitch causes it, no matter the mechanics.  Stress will be there no matter how you throw, and in large, large amounts.  That&#039;s just the nature of the motion.

Please, email or fax me all of this research that you are quoting, I would love to see it.  Chances are, it either doesn&#039;t exist or doesn&#039;t prove anything at all, much like the musings of Chris O&#039;Leary, which I very clearly explained are flawed and anecdotal.  The best research in the baseball injury field is on GIRD, which is one of the most widely agreed upon correlational precursors to injury, is still only CORRELATIONAL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, understand that neither O&#8217;leary or yourself have any actual research showing a causal link between ANY type of pitching mechanics and injury.  NO ONE in the baseball biomechanics field has a causal link between pitching mechanics and injury.  Correlational research is the best anyone has done, and they have been weak at best.</p>
<p>Second, you&#8217;ve completely missed the point.  O&#8217;Leary&#8217;s comparative argument is fatally flawed.  Sure, Greg Maddux has nice pitching mechanics, but just because Greg had a great, injury-free career does NOT indicate that his mechanics play any causal role in his or anyone else&#8217;s injury status. The fact of the matter is, if you want to say anything about the role pitching mechanics play in injury, then you need to take a very large sample of pitchers and compare them to themselves as well as the major league average for injuries, etc. etc. (I explained this all in my article, which it appears you largely skimmed).</p>
<p>Third, how do you know Nolan Ryan, Roger, Greg and Randy use their &#8220;Core&#8221; muscles more than other pitchers? Let me answer: you don&#8217;t.  That&#8217;s just anecdotal.  There is not a pitcher out there who throws 90+ who doesn&#8217;t use his large muscles, rotate his hips before his shoulders, etc. etc.</p>
<p>Fourth, &#8220;stress&#8221; on the rotator cuff? Stress is pretty common on the rotator cuff, as every pitch causes it, no matter the mechanics.  Stress will be there no matter how you throw, and in large, large amounts.  That&#8217;s just the nature of the motion.</p>
<p>Please, email or fax me all of this research that you are quoting, I would love to see it.  Chances are, it either doesn&#8217;t exist or doesn&#8217;t prove anything at all, much like the musings of Chris O&#8217;Leary, which I very clearly explained are flawed and anecdotal.  The best research in the baseball injury field is on GIRD, which is one of the most widely agreed upon correlational precursors to injury, is still only CORRELATIONAL.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-18</guid>
		<description>The inverted &quot;W&quot; and even elevating the elbow above shoulder height (after taking into account arm slot and shoulder tilt) will impinge and cause stress on the rotator cuff muscles.   From a physical therapy standpoint, a shoulder injury is more likely to occur when the elbow is above the shoulder and the shoulder is externally rotated from an internally rotated position (like the inverted &quot;W&quot; position).  It&#039;s hard to argue with the research that has already proven this fact.  In addition, why wouldn&#039;t you want to look at pitchers that have similar pitching mechanics and have had long, successful pitching careers?  Greg Maddux, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, and Randy Johnson ALL keep their elbows below their shoulders, show the ball to 3rd base in &quot;high cocked&quot; position, rotate hips before shoulders, and use their large &quot;core&quot; muscles (upper legs and lower abdominal muscles) more than their arm muscles to generate power.  I am teaching my sons these basic pitching mechanics and so far it seems to be working.  Little League pitch count rules also play a big role in reducing repetitive injuries in young players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The inverted &#8220;W&#8221; and even elevating the elbow above shoulder height (after taking into account arm slot and shoulder tilt) will impinge and cause stress on the rotator cuff muscles.   From a physical therapy standpoint, a shoulder injury is more likely to occur when the elbow is above the shoulder and the shoulder is externally rotated from an internally rotated position (like the inverted &#8220;W&#8221; position).  It&#8217;s hard to argue with the research that has already proven this fact.  In addition, why wouldn&#8217;t you want to look at pitchers that have similar pitching mechanics and have had long, successful pitching careers?  Greg Maddux, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, and Randy Johnson ALL keep their elbows below their shoulders, show the ball to 3rd base in &#8220;high cocked&#8221; position, rotate hips before shoulders, and use their large &#8220;core&#8221; muscles (upper legs and lower abdominal muscles) more than their arm muscles to generate power.  I am teaching my sons these basic pitching mechanics and so far it seems to be working.  Little League pitch count rules also play a big role in reducing repetitive injuries in young players.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Blewett</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Blewett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 05:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-17</guid>
		<description>Well, as you realize, my argument was to bring light to his poor methodology, not to blow the lid off the whole issue.  If I had the time, I would dig through the big leagues to find the healthy Inverted W pitchers, who are invariably out there, but alas, my days have been long.  I&#039;ll make it a priority to start looking. Thanks for reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as you realize, my argument was to bring light to his poor methodology, not to blow the lid off the whole issue.  If I had the time, I would dig through the big leagues to find the healthy Inverted W pitchers, who are invariably out there, but alas, my days have been long.  I&#8217;ll make it a priority to start looking. Thanks for reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Victor</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 04:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-16</guid>
		<description>I agree with you that, just because certain pitchers had injuries and pitched with the inverted &quot;W,&quot; it doesn&#039;t mean that the former is caused by the latter.  However, simply saying &quot;no, no, no,&quot; isn&#039;t an argument, either.  Do you know of any pitchers who throw with the inverted &quot;W&quot; and don&#039;t have injury problems?  If you do, then you would really poke a gigantic hole in his theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that, just because certain pitchers had injuries and pitched with the inverted &#8220;W,&#8221; it doesn&#8217;t mean that the former is caused by the latter.  However, simply saying &#8220;no, no, no,&#8221; isn&#8217;t an argument, either.  Do you know of any pitchers who throw with the inverted &#8220;W&#8221; and don&#8217;t have injury problems?  If you do, then you would really poke a gigantic hole in his theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Blewett</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Blewett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 00:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Fair enough.  If you have any links to other Inverted W research, please send them my way.  I&#039;d be interested to read more about it.  I realize I can get argumentative, but I really appreciate you reading my articles.  Thanks, Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough.  If you have any links to other Inverted W research, please send them my way.  I&#8217;d be interested to read more about it.  I realize I can get argumentative, but I really appreciate you reading my articles.  Thanks, Dan</p>
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		<title>By: Felipe</title>
		<link>http://danblewett.com/2009/06/chris-olearys-worthless-argument-against-the-inverted-w/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Felipe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 22:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danblewett.com/?p=88#comment-14</guid>
		<description>I am sorry I assumed you knew about the whole discussion around regarding the inverted W. Most researchers agree that the Invert W is bad.
I understand now that you &quot;wrote a critical assessment of his argument&quot;.
My point is he simply used bad arguments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry I assumed you knew about the whole discussion around regarding the inverted W. Most researchers agree that the Invert W is bad.<br />
I understand now that you &#8220;wrote a critical assessment of his argument&#8221;.<br />
My point is he simply used bad arguments.</p>
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